The recent implosion of websites, forums, and groups that bear Hillary’s name, originally supported her candidacy and agenda, organized as a result of her campaign, and/or followed her progress as Secretary of State has occurred in such a way as to appear, even to the casual observer, coordinated. As a former resident of the now defunct Hillary’s Village, I am familiar with how that particular forum went down. Weeks later, having read the stories in emails, on Facebook, on blogs, I have seen that other sites experienced similar difficulties or transformations. Here’s what happened at Hillary’s Village and why I think it continues to be important for true Hillary loyalists to guard against influences that come from quarters that hold none of Hillary’s values, principles, or plans.
At HV there probably always was a strong, powerful Republican presence. I will say it here: I suspect administrators (perhaps not all) and super mods (some) were dyed in the wool Republicans. The Village might even have been started by Republicans for all I know. As a former mod there myself, I can say that there was special attention paid to infiltration by and banning of Obots. No equivalent attention was paid to Republicans or neo-cons.
Sarah Palin announced her resignation on July 3, a Friday. I was asked that day by a BTR radio host to call in with my reaction during that evening’s show. When I did, I gave my opinion as a voter. I said that this does nothing to inspire in a voter faith that she would ever again fulfill a term in public office. I called her a quitter, and I was royally attacked in the chat room. I invited those folks to call in and refute what I had said. None did.
The following Sunday I went to HV, clicked on “new posts” and was amazed to see a long string of threads about Sarah Palin and NOTHING ABOUT HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, the Village chief! When this phenomenon persisted through the day of July 5, I went back over there and cross-posted something from this blog wherein I had also referred to Palin as a quitter. Again I was attacked. Further, I could see in other threads that there was pressure being exerted on Villagers to support Palin. (It was not made clear how exactly one supports someone who is leaving office and has not declared candidacy for any other). Essentially the message was : If you supported Hillary, you MUST support Sarah.
Now I will defend women of any political stripe against sexist attacks, and I had defended Palin there and on my own blogs. I draw the line, though, at crossing political philosophies just because a politician is a woman. Maggie Thatcher was never my girl. Sarah Palin is not.
I stepped back from HV that day. I reentered occasionally to check, but the Palin threads were overwhelming. A week later there was an odd and disturbing message sent to some Villagers from a known source directing us to a different forum where screen-shots of private chats from HV had been posted. The remarks indicated some personal conflicts had arisen in the high administration, but there were also clear labels – political ones – attached to administrators and super mods. I decided to remain away from HV until the dust settled. Within days it was gone.
Prior to that, Together4Us had sustained attacks so terrible, it seems, that posting there has become more tedious than watching paint dry. Pantsuit Politics had some kind of trouble. Since then odd things have occurred at Hillbuzz – in fact it apparently is now a Sarah Palin site.
Many sites originally associated with Hillary and named for her now boast testimonials to Palin, and members are exposed to Palin propaganda. This indicates Republican infiltration and extends as well to “feminist” sites that claim to be non-partisan. I view it as typical bait-and-switch. You do a search, think you have found a Hillary site, link in and find a Sarah site.
I lay the death (as well as the birth) of HV squarely on the shoulders of Republicans and neo-cons who disguised themselves as PUMAs and Ultra-Militant Feminists who pretended that discussing anything other than Hillary’s policies and deeds was sexist. We were told more than once, no matter what challenge Hillary faced that this woman-of-steel could weather anything so -NO SYMPATHY, PLEASE! Even when she broke her elbow, I saw: “She’ll be back tomorrow.” (Well, essentially, she WAS, but she should not have been). No sympathy for the pain! We were told it was sexist to talk about her wardrobe, hair, looks. Now I know that these were foxes in the henhouse trying to intimidate Hillary’s loyalists and push them toward the Republican party using Palin as their tool.
Unfortunately, over the past year I have seen former Democrats become Republicans – manipulated by Republicans, not simply on the Palin issue, but also by using scare tactics re: things the Obama administration will do. Well, I am no fan of that administration, but some of what I am seeing makes no sense. Just one: Flu vaccine will be mandatory and you will be forced to get it. Hello? There is not even ENOUGH vaccine!
I bring all of this up in the run-up to the appearance in tomorrow’s New York Times of an interview with Hillary wherein she makes her agenda for women very clear along with her reasons for doing so: A New Gender Agenda. When I read what Hillary has to say, I see nothing that I have not always known about her since she surfaced on my periscope. But there is a resounding LACK of attention to these issues mounted by Palin supporters and by Pailn herself.
Hillary explains the relationship between the political, social, and economic well-being of women and a healthy and free society. I have never heard any of these notes sung by Palin, have you? If you are a woman, staying with Hillary and her objectives is the only option that makes any sense. If you are a man, and you read her words, you will see that supporting her goals makes the most sense for any society. If you are a Palin supporter, you should read this. If you were a Hillary supporter and now support Palin, what on earth are you thinking?
I have been freaked out by Democrats thinking of voting for Palin. Like WTF, really? Perhaps some centrist or conservative Democrats but like you said there are too many to believe. I chalk it up to my strength as a liberal and feminist that I WILL NEVER VOTE REPUBLICAN COME HELL OR HIGH WATER but some are less adamant in their beliefs. I said loudly on PUMA and non-partisan feminist sites I WILL NEVER VOTE FOR OBAMA OR PALIN UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE and Palin announced her independence/resignation the next day. She seemed deflated and no longer seeking the Presidency. Now she’s toeing the Republican Party line and running for President. I don’t think the push to not discuss anything but Clinton or Palin’s policies was anything but feminism i.e. we got so used to sexism against the two most everything else was sexist. I also think when Palin dropped out, many including myself said it was sexism and Obots sexually harrassing her out of office which is what happened. Hillbuzz freaks me out. I mean, really? Centrist Democrats voting Republican? Whatever floats their boat but it’s hard to believe. I was upset when HV disappeared but glad it wasn’t Obots who took it down but what you believe. This is freaky:
A week later there was an odd and disturbing message sent to some Villagers from a known source directing us to a different forum where screen-shots of private chats from HV had been posted. The remarks indicated some personal conflicts had arisen in the high administration, but there were also clear labels – political ones – attached to administrators and super mods. I decided to remain away from HV until the dust settled. Within days it was gone.
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Hey Donna! Glad to see you here at Homegirl since you ARE one!
The way HV went down truly was freaky. I had almost been LIVING there and suddenly felt alien. Things turn on a dime.
They say politics makes strange bedfellows. But the leap from Hillary to Sarah is way outside the margins.
Bottom line, we concentrated all of our vigilance on the left and left the right free to invade. As a linguist that last sentence disturbs me – what does “left” mean? I think it means abandon. Here at DeHoS I have used “right” to mean correct.
I actually LIKE Sarah Pailn as a person. I’m watching her now on SNL. She’s a regular Joe, and I wish her well in her personal life. But she stands against everything I hold dear.
Good to see you here, Homegirl Donna!
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I’m gonna go out on a limb here and jump up and down, but I find it so interesting that the “left” was seen as the enemy on many PUMA blogs and that was definitely my experience on many of them and it became frustrating- on *some* of them [no, not all!] if you were perceived to be very liberal than automatically you were flagged as a potential “Obot”-that’s all well and good and of course there were some of those, but did anyone ever stop to consider that it turned off a lot of liberal/progressive people that might have been open to voting for Hillary?
Granted, one of the great things about Hillary is she appeals to people all across the political spectrum, but if I didn’t believe Hillary Clinton had somewhat of a progressive agenda on issues I don’t think I would be such an avid supporter. How can I support someone politically that doesn’t support a single thing I do? That’s why I could NEVER support Sarah Palin.
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Well, this post echoes everything I have been saying publicly on PUMA blogs and privately to my PUMA friends since the nomination was handed to Obama in August 2008 and the Repubs took over the PUMA movement. Overnight, the PUMA blogs became McCain/Palin campaign sites, and I saw what was going on. I protested loudly to the PUMA leaders and to the loyal Hillaryites who were throwing in their lot with the Repubs and voting for McCain, but no one wanted to hear it. As long as the Repub fake PUMAs were against Obama, the real Hillary supporters would remain quiet and complicit in the takeover. And now, as I predicted, it’s all coming back to haunt us.
Of course there were way too many alleged “Hillary supporters” becoming Palin supporters to make that conversion rate credible. But there were in fact many true blue Hillary loyalists who DID volunteer for her campaign, worked diligently to get her nominated, even went to Denver to protest the travesty, and then were utterly crushed when she was thrown under the bus by her own party. And they became Palin supporters. Why? Because of Obama. They hate the ground he walks on. And that blind hatred of Obama has turned center-left Hillaryites into right-wing Republican tools.
There are plenty of fakers out there who never gave a rat’s ass about Hillary and couldn’t care less how she was treated during the primaries. Unfortunately, many of these fake Hillaryites are running blogs that pretend to be “Hillary” sites, but we can see through them. To me, the real tragedy is the number of real Hillary supporters who are now so monomaniacal in their hatred of Obama that they cannot see how truly bizarre it is to jump from Hillary to Palin in the blink of an eye, abandoning all of your political ideology and principles because you hate this one man, Obama.
Yes, Still4Hill — As you’ve said many times: “It can all turn on a dime!”
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Hi I was a regular visitor at Hillarys village too,
and I was shocked when I read that many of the villagers were actually thinking that Hillarys and Sarah Palins policies and plans are almost the same.
I’m just glad that you guys here stick with HIllary, and that you know the differences.
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HI, STILL4HILL!!!!!!!!! MY HOMEGIRL!!!!!!
When people say Hillary is marginalized they mean the MSM and Obama marginalize her and keep her out of the spotlight. It does not mean she isn’t busting her ass and doing ten times more and better than Obama!!!!!!
Lots are Democrats who are so repulsed by Obama and the primary they became Republicans. I feel the same way but escalating war in other countries ie the way McCain said he was going to stay in Iraq 100 years is the kind of thing that separates me from centrist and conservative Dems who will turn Republican on a dime.
That said, which sites do you think are Republican????? HAHA just kidding but I’ll name a few for fun. I really like Hillaryis44. Alex Rodriguez analysis is amazing but I want to know his lifetime voting record. This might be mean and I love her blog but SYD went from Dem to saying “I’ll definitely vote for Palin!” a little too strongly. The non party affiliated college student learning about researching at New Agenda suddenly posted about Michelle Bachmann which made me wretch. Too sudden for coincidence. You’re right all these sudden turns happened at the same time. Hillbuzz is centrist Democrats who love strong women. I don’t think they’re Republicans.
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To be clear, I think “Karen” at TNA is Republican not The New Agenda.
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Some of us have discussed this before:
Hillary had a 75-90 percent liberal voting record in the senate, according to her Wikipedia entry, which compiled that figure based on her ratings from several political groups across the spectrum. No matter what year you are talking about, she was rated as one of the most liberal senators in office at that time, although her rating varied depending on the makeup of the senate, as you might expect. So, on what basis do alleged Hillary supporters go after “progressives” and continue to trash “liberals” as if we were all “evil”?
The rhetoric on some of the supposedly pro-Hillary blogs is astonishing. Beware of people who tell you how much they love Hillary one minute, and then call her signature issue, Universal Health Care, the unAmerican — even “commie” — handiwork of “liberals” or “socialists” the next, as if those were the worst curse words they could ever come up with.
If people are now supporting Palin (who calls UHC “evil”), and they are still allegedly supporting Hillary, then they have to own up to the fact that Hillary is a liberal, and Palin is a conservative, and no, never will those two fundamentally polar opposites meet. Either people like the Hillbuzz guys are schizophrenic, or they are in denial and cannot own up to the fact that they are contradicting themselves by supporting Hillary one minute and Palin the next.
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Puma blogs were targeted by republicans even before the primaries were over to attract Hillary supporters.
First, they would say Hillary was cheated and obama sucks(which is true). Second,they would say why is Hillary acting like obama and letting him control her and she is selling out. Finally,they would say palin would never do what Hillary is doing now so we should support her. Those three steps happened all over certain puma and Hillary blogs.
On a side note to those who said Hillary has sold out,how did she sell out. She said she would stand up for LGBT community and she is,they can now recieve benefits in the state department. She said she would be tough on Iran,NK, and places like that and she is. She said she would stand up for woman and she is. The promises she made as a presidental candidate she is now keeping as SOS. The only thing she really can’t comment on is healthcare.
Certain puma and Hillary blogs allow talking points for World Net Daily,Dick “toe” Morris,Hannity,Limbaugh and Beck attacking obama,but won’t allow links from firedoglake and crooks and liars who are now questioning obama because of healthcare is a signal to me they might be republican. If you post links for liberal blogs or journalists criticizing the republicans or even obama you are conisdered an obot. Some say how can you link to them they treated Hillary bad,but they allow links to republicans who have treated Hillary the same way.
Certain puma and Hillary blogs would rather join the republicans in attacking obama,then joining other liberals in trying to get obama to govern liberal. They are to eager to join republicans for my taste.
I agree with Hillary when she says we need to support women,but they need to be the right women for us and not just any women.
Hillbuzz is a fraud and a lost cause. They sold Hillary out for a size 2 with a wink. They use Hillary’s picture and name which most people would assume they support Hillary and her beliefs,but when you get there it is republican talking points. They also support Michael Steele and the Cheneys. That is not a moderate democrat,that is a republican. Even most moderate democrats think Cheney is bad.
I am not a puma. I am a liberal,Hillary supporter,Homegirl,and a Widdershin.
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NYC Girl and Jill4Hill- excellent points. So long as so-called ‘pro-Hillary’ sites continue to do an occasional shout-out or defense of Hillary, many people will not see the sites for what they are – right-wing sleeper cells. Hatred for Obama does not necessarily = pro-Hillary and some are learning that the hard way.
During the election, the media also helped along the false notion that Obama was the only “liberal” in the race, thus attracting many more liberals to him that were tired of 8 years of Bush’s wars. Of course, that may have worked both ways a bit- who knows how many conservatives were attracted to Hillary because of the media’s insistence on overly-simplistic labels.
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I guess we read different PUMA blogs and don’t know any that don’t post liberal Obot blogs. Conservative sources are sometimes the only ones that tell the truth or tell the truth more quickly ie you don’t have to wait months to get to the point because Obot blogs can bring themselves to criticize Obama.
At first, I didn’t like that she took the SOS job. I changed my mind but she should jump ship if the Administration is more ostensibly corrupt.
Hillbuzz was always centrist so they do oppose socialism.
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donna darko-
Well, this was during the primaries and into the GE and that is why in my comment above, I made sure to specify *some PUMA blogs* which tended to be leaning more and more to the right as time went on and it seemed to me that as that progression took shape, the more liberal one was, the more likely to be pegged as an Obot- unless of course one also really went out of their way to attack Obama personally. I’m sure there were many PUMA sites where this was not the case and in fact, I know there were/are. But I’m not even saying that PUMA blogs should post “liberal Obot blogs” as you say- I don’t expect any of them to post pro-Obama stuff, I just didn’t expect that having very liberal views would get me pegged as a closet Obama supporter.
You said:
“Conservative sources are sometimes the only ones that tell the truth or tell the truth more quickly ie you don’t have to wait months to get to the point because Obot blogs can bring themselves to criticize Obama.”
I will respectfully disagree with you on that. Both liberal blogs and conservative blogs sometimes can’t see through their own bias and if you are looking for Obama supporters who criticize him, look no further than Rachel Maddow and Glenn Greenwald. There are actually liberals out there who believe in certain principles more than they believe in a particular politician. I know, shocking.
You said:
“Hillbuzz was always centrist so they do oppose socialism.”
What socialism? Only centrists oppose socialism? I guess most people wouldn’t consider me a “centrist” so I guess that makes me a socialist but I can’t think of a single policy put forth by any current dem or republican off the top of my head that qualifies as *true* socialism. Of course, when Hillary was trying to get single-payer health reform through, she was called a socialist too, so I guess I’m in good company.
*sigh*
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You can also extricate yourself completely from the liberal/conservative polarity by looking at news from independent sources, such as:
On the right:
Lou Dobbs (one of my favorites, although I am not a right-winger) http://www.loudobbs.com/
On the left:
Ralph Nader (I voted for Ralph for president in the 2008 GE)
http://www.nader.org/
The Green Party (I will vote Green in 2012 if the Dems upchuck BHO as their nom again = “Obarfma”)
http://www.gp.org/index.php
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I am not sure most realize Hillary is a liberal.
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Everyone I know who is both a Sarah and Hillary supporter is very aware of what their differences are. I don’t think either of them are bad public servants, though I clearly agree with Hillary on a great deal more. I’m, for one, am very aware of their ideological difference and respect them for having the tenacity to stand for them. Standing up at all means being subjected to mockery and indignity from the opposing side, and yes, even your side. I think that takes guts.
They say your experiences stand for nothing. You prove them wrong. They say you’re too dumb to breathe, so you keep breathing and you keep talking. The way I’ve always seen it, if they’re making death threats against you and they’re telling you to shut up, they’re clearly worried about what you’ve got to say.
I like both Sarah Palin and Hillary Clinton. I’ve gotten crap about that before and will continue to. No, I am not out of touch with reality. No, my head isn’t screwed on funny. I support them for what they are: Sarah for being a Republican woman making a name for herself as she raises five children and, previously, ran a state. Hillary for being an undercover badass for thirty-five years and now leaving her mark in huge letters across the world stage.
They are not the same and I know that. Everyone knows that. I think to say that anyone doesn’t does them a great disservice. I know not a person who decided to vote McCain who didn’t vote all downticket Dems to offset the difference.
People choose who they will support based on their own reasoning. Bill Clinton said back in August of 2008 (paraphrase) that you can’t tell voters their reason for voting is stupid. You don’t have to like it, you’re certainly welcome to look down on them for it, but that won’t change the fact that they’ll choose for themselves.
Some people (myself included) determined that the best way to preserve the party brand was to let the economic clusterfrak be someone else’s problem instead of putting a novice with a D in charge. Now, we own it, among other things. Unless things improve, we’ll be lucky if we keep the White House much less the Congressional majority.
I adore Hillary and am more than fond of Sarah, I make no apologies for that. I just wonder why these two can’t exist as separate political entities. The election is over and they only speak about each other when asked. They’ve moved on, why aren’t we allowed to?
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I know,you know,and we all know the differences between Hillary and palin. That is why I will never vote for palin. The question I and others have is how can someone who supports Hillary and voted for her vote for palin in 2012?
Hillary dislikes palin and palin hates Hillary. Hillary has always been nice to palin,but all palin does is attack Hillary, try to make her a victim,and call her a whiner. What pisses me off is that when palin does attacks Hillary so-called Hillary supporters make excuses for her and say she doesn’t know or she was helping Hillary and Hillary was sort of whining. Can someone please explain that. Also ever since Hillaary became SOS and gets sexist treatment I hear from some puma blogs that it is bad,but Hillary can deal with it. Let someone say something sexist about palin and the same blogs are calling sponsers and for boycotts.
I will stand with you still4hill and other liberal/democrat pumas,but I will not bowdown and kiss republican butt just so we can get obama out of the whitehouse like other pumas are willing to do so with smiles on their faces. I will work with other liberals/democrats to try to make obama govern as a democrat and not a republican.
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I know – when Palin does it is isn’t whining. And for how many years did Hillary put up with this garbage compared to Palin’s how many months? I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. I never heard Hillary whine and I welcome anyone who has to put up the link to the video where she did. I never get a video because there is none.
I don’t think anyone is asking you to kiss RePUMAcan butt. I do think that we all have a duty to identify the RePUMAcans at blogs and forums when we spot them. POINT AND SCREAM!
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When the new agenda and puma pac and some of it posters say we need to support all women,to me that means voting for republican women and going with what they believe.
We can point out the republicans at these blogs,but it will not matter because close to half of those who comment there are republicans. If you do point out you get called an obot,you are causing trouble,we need to work with republicans, and my favorite you are selling out hillary because you are calling out republicans. Some how they managed to make going after republicans to mean you are now defending obama, no I am defending what I believe in.
I do not like pelosi,but when beck says he wants to posion her and these we support all women don’t defend her,what does that say. But call bachman crazy and your sexist. As cinie has written about puma blogs were astrotuefed by republicans,imho some fought this and other went along with it.
Name me one republican who defended Hillary and not republicans who pretended to defend her to get in the good graces of puma.
Still4hill you said you started this blog because Hillary kept her word and worked for obama,well isn’t that one of the reasons we voted for and not obama because he will throw anyone under the bus. She kept her word and people attack her for it,it makes no sense.
IMHO, to those who say they support and voted for Hillary and will vote for palin in 2012 are not a republican,a democrat, or an independent they are confused.
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Jill – the tab at the top of the page “Why we are here” – I wrote that the day I started this forum – it was when Hillary was out campaigning for Obama and at least half the Pumas were seething with anger and turned on her. I noticed that people click on this a lot and thought I should look and maybe update it, but no. It IS why we are here, because Hillary does keep her word. It’s one of the things we love about her, isn’t it?
It seems to me there are three courses of action:
1. We call out the RePUMAcans at Hillary sites. (Making sure the true Hillary people get a heads-up). This will get us banned at some sites – who cares?
2. We quietly stop visiting those sites (so we can avoid the migraines they engender,
3. We combine 1 and 2 and leave noisily. I would have left HV noisily, but it left me before I could do that.
It’s not just about Palin, either, there is a lot of defense of Orly Taitz going on at those sites, and it seems to be obligatory to support her even while she keeps naming Hillary in writs and motions. I don’t buy the “if she can’t get him out” argument because her BC quest goes nowhere and proves nothing. She is a Republican and she has had Hillary in her cross hairs for almost a year.
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Still4Hill,
I have said many times that I am in favor of “leaving loudly” and letting everyone know that you are leaving a blog, forum, etc. because it is no longer what it originally was or what it is advertised as. I left the PUMA Pac blog after saying a million times publicly that not all PUMAs support the Republicans! But no one cared. I also publicly protested the infiltration of Repubs at the Confluence, but was told by a couple of front pagers that “there are no labels anymore”, “there’s no left and right anymore”, “we are nonpartisan here”, BS, BS … So, even if you leave a forum and say why you are leaving, they basically don’t give a damn.
I think that you should leave loudly AND do what you have done here: Start your own forum or blog with the express intention of bringing in the TRUE Hillaryites and making it clear that your site is not there to be a mouthpiece for the Repubs or the alleged Hillary/Palin supporters. If you do not want to start your own site, then be sure to visit and support the REAL pro-Hillary sites and the REAL pro-Hillary bloggers and let everyone know about the Repub fakers at the other allegedly pro-Hillary sites.
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NYC Girl
I was referring to the confluence when I said so-called Hillary supporters defended and made excuses for palin when she was attacking Hillary.
Puma pac attacked The Widdershins,because The Widdershins had the guts to call them on their bs(promoting republicans and the republican talking points). Now puma pac calls The Widdershins an echo chamber, women of prissness/pissyness, and they are irrelevant. Still4hill and other liberal pumas stand for what puma originally started out as and I would too,if they still stood for that. But, IMHO some of the main pumas don’t stand for that anymore and think we should all come together and join hands with republicans. The same republicans who called anyone who questioned bush un-American,who hate liberals,and have said the most vile and nasty thing about all three Clintons. But since the republicans hate obama too,they are okay now. They are being used by republicans and either they don’t realize it,they don’t care or they are ashamed to admit.
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O/T
I respond to the birthers with this,If obama was born in Kenya and there was a birth certificate to prove that,then the Clintons would have found it and Hillary would be president right now.
Tatiz is a loon and does not need to be on TV.
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LOL…you go JillforHill!
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You know it’s funny. I started this blog because Hillary was being attacked for campaigning for the ticket in the GE – which was exactly what she had said she would do – and here jillforhill is making the same point. When Hillary says she is going to do something, she does it. People should not be surprised. (When she says she is NOT going to do something, sometimes she does).
As for the size 2 – well I had a email from Destiny who had her pic taken with Hillz – Destiny says she wears a 7/8 and Hillary is several sizes smaller than she is – just for the record. I have had a problem all along with the “younger, sexier, streamlined version” meme. There’s no accounting for taste, but to me Hillary looks amazing, young, and sexy.
And Jill – I think you’ve done an excellent analysis of the sequence that we saw in the sleeper blogs.
I am still registered Dem and have no plan to change that, but I am a PUMA in the sense of Party Unity My A$$. The party is NOT united – it is fractured. They try to put out a united front, but it’s dysfunctional within and the problems began with Howard Dean and with Donna Brazile telling the “base” to stay home. I still have that email archived somewhere.
The worst part is that the Republican Party is no better off, but they managed to organize themselves enough to pull this off. It’s all so reminiscent of Segretti and the Dirty Tricksters – one of whom was Karl Rove. I am sure he is lurking in the background of this.
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Why is firedoglake an obot site? For the past two weeks they have been calling him on his bs healthcare along with bluedogs,rahm,and daschle. They have a post about the liar daschle today, I could not post that at certain puma blogs because I would be called an obot. I could not post about palin,grassley,and other republicans lying about death panels from liberal sites. Grassley backtracked from his death panel comments today on face the nation.
Did conservative blogs tell the truth about terror alerts,wmd,torture, death panels,cheney,or when they said the clintons being drug dealers,bill being a rapist, and chelsea being web hubbel’s daughter?
Liberal blogs did lie and attack the clintons,but so did these republicans who according to you are now telling the truth. Try again.
Try to post something on a certain puma blog calling republicans on their bs and you can’t or they blame democrats. On some of the blogs liberal is a bad word,but conservative is the real Americans. Repiblicans and clinton haters started the bs about Hillary being in the shadows.
These liberal sites are now waking up that obama is a liar. Why not welcome them to puma and say now you know why we did not want him,let’s work together to elect a real liberal/democrat. But that would not happen because some are republicans and don’t want that to happen. Not all democrats are obots and not all republicans are truth tellers. There is no differnce between hotair and daily kos or limbaugh and Ed schulz. But why do you consider limbaugh and hotair more crediable than schulz since they both liars,attacked the clintons and are blowhards.
If obama is a socialist most liberals would not be pissed at him right now. Socialist and nazi are thrown out there when republicans have nothing else. Liberals called bush a nazi, but bush and his cronies said if you were against the president you were un-American, so now wouldn’t republicans be un-American.
Most moderate democrats think cheney is bad,but republicans think he is great. Hillbuzz think he is great,they are republicans.
My question to some of the puma blogs and you is did you know Hillary and Bill are liberals?
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JillForHill said:
“Why is firedoglake an obot site? For the past two weeks they have been calling him on his bs healthcare along with bluedogs,rahm,and daschle. They have a post about the liar daschle today, I could not post that at certain puma blogs because I would be called an obot. I could not post about palin,grassley,and other republicans lying about death panels from liberal sites. Grassley backtracked from his death panel comments today on face the nation…”
Thank you Jill, you have described my point (which I was doing a horrible job of trying to make, above 😉 ) exactly.
I think Firedoglake is an excellent source for good information, from a progressive/liberal perspective. Yes, many of the writers generally supported Obama in the primaries but many of those same people, as you said above, are calling Obama on the carpet for some of the things he’s been doing- in fact, for MOST of the things he’s been doing. And as I said in one of my comments above, the same goes for Rachel Maddow and Glenn Greenwald, among others. And Firedoglake has always *hated* Rahm Emmanuel! Firedoglake is very progressive, as you know, and most of the people who write blog posts tend to be willing to go after any Democrat or liberal who talks the talk during an election, but who doesn’t walk the walk!
How many pro-Palin people could say the same when she was shown, to, ummm..flip flop a bit? Not many that I saw.
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People need to get their political ideologies sorted out and understand that it makes no sense whatsoever to support a staunch liberal and a staunch conservative both at the same time. If people do not understand the inherent contradiction there, then they are politically naive, or they are trying to game someone, just like the alleged pro-Hillary blogs that now support Palin are trying to do.
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I think there are Obots here trying to discredit PUMAs because I don’t recognize your names from The Confluence, et al and PUMAs understand the sentiment from the primary corruption and misogyny. They instinctively know FDL and the entire netroots was completely drunk on the Koolaid until a couple months ago.
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You mean HERE? In this thread? Everyone here is in Hillary’s posse.
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Are you calling me an obot? I have never defended obama or voted for him,because he is a republican-lite. I can start calling out pumas I think are republicans or spew republican talking points. Some pumas have started to turn right and attack anything liberal/democrat. I did not leave puma,they left me just like the DNC who picked a republican-lite over Hillary a real liberal.
You have not answered my question why are republicans who have lied and trashed the clintons trustworthy?
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donnadarko,
If you are going to start accusing people of being Obots here at Homegirl Security, you had better come up with specifics — What posts and authors do you judge to be in the Obot category here and why? And just because you personally do not recognize someone’s name from the Confluence means nothing. Go over to PUMA Pac and read the comments from last year — search on “NYCgirl” (just like that, without the space or the capital “g”) and see what you come up with. If you are not willing to back up your accusations with that kind of specificity and research, then stop talking to us.
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See, this is EXACTLY what I am talking about. This type of negative, suspicious reaction is what I and some friends of mine who are liberal Hillary supporters experienced when I/we would comment on various PUMA sites during the election and honestly, it was so frustrating I cut my losses and instead focused my efforts on face-to-face campaign volunteering- good old fashioned knocking on doors type of stuff- I found it to be much more positive of an experience than constantly having to waste my time defending the fact that I was a very liberal Hillary supporter. That said, while I stopped commenting on those sites I would still lurk because I liked some of the posts and the opinions but go so tired of the paranoia and suspicion!
Quite honestly, as far as political strategies go, it’s self-defeating for *some* Hillary supporters to treat other Hillary supporters in this way, simply because of liberal ideology or even because *some* Hillary supporters may not hate Obama with every fiber in their body. I don’t like Obama and I think he’s doing a crappy job, but I’m not going to waste my time with over-the-top insults or stoop to the level of some on the far-right by alleging he’s a terrorist or a closet-Muslim or that he’s a closet cocaine-snorting homosexual etc.
Also, WHEN Hillary runs again, is it really wise for *some* Hillary supporters to essentially do everything possible to make the Hillary Club so damn exclusive? It’s a political movement not a country club admission process. It kind of amuses me how *some* people go out of their way to run other Hillary supporters off and apparently are quite pleased with themselves for doing so! And I can’t help but wonder what Hillary herself would think of that, particularly given many of us are just as loyal and just as willing to do everything possible to get her into the Oval Office.
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Department of Homegirl Security, The Confluence and my blog are all WordPress.
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What’s your point?
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DHS, TC and my blog are WordPress so my name is the same on these blogs.
I never read PUMAPac comments but agree everyone should cut out Republican talking points. During the primary or election, it was more understandable because they make their points more quickly. You didn’t have to wait a few months until Obots figured things out. Now an Obot here and there will figure things out.
If you’re not Obots, okay.
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donnadarko,
I know Still4Hill personally. She goes way back in the PUMA movement and is for sure not an Obot.
Speaking for myself, I am a progressive independent who switched over to the Dems just for the primaries when Hillary was in the running. As a lifelong NYC resident, I was familiar with her record as she was our very popular two-term senator, and we all supported her candidacy here. She won NY handily over BO in the primary, with over 60 percent of the vote. She should have won the nomination. The fact that it was handed to BO by the DNC-RBC was criminal.
When Hillary made her famous speech suspending her candidacy, I was so mad, I went online the next day to see what people were saying. It was all so outrageous — the way she was treated, the sexist media coverage, BO getting the nomination through treachery and racebaiting — I could not believe it. Online on Hillary’s blog I found a link to a forum called Clinton Democrats. There I found links to Just Say No Deal with their defiant “Party Unity My Ass!” slogan, and to PUMA Pac. I went over to PP and saw Murphy’s inspirational statement: “Thank you, Hillary Clinton. We’ll take it from here.” I said: “That’s it. I’m joining these PUMAs.”
So, no — we are not Obots here. I am someone who goes way back with the original PUMAs, dating from the day after Hillary suspended. At that point, it was only the staunch Hillaryites who became PUMAs. And I did not vote for the Repubs in the GE. I went back over the the leftist independents and donated to Ralph Nader, who also got my vote for president.
So, we have to continue to remind people that PUMA was started by diehard Hillary loyalists, not by the Republicans who were allowed to hijack our movement.
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STILL4HILL IS MY HOMEGIRL! NO WAY ARE YOU AND STILL4HILL OBOTS!
I was thinking the same thing. The original PUMAs are Hillary loyalists who went through the primary. I go back 17 years when I first heard her speak on Bill’s campaign trail. That day, I imagined she could be President. Violet Socks got me into PUMA. Before that, The Apostate turned me onto Violet Socks. But I didn’t start blogging about PUMA until two months after it started.
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Okay, I’m glad we’re clear on this: Homegirl Security is not an Obot site!
For sure there are fake Hillary forums that have been taken over by Obots rather than Repubs. The old Clinton Dems forum, which was the first PUMA site I ever heard about and joined, became Hillcrats Forum after the GE, but it was subsequently taken over by Obots.
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Whew! My Homegirls! I’m glad to see that if I go off to work for a day and don’t have time to check in here, things can get straightened out.
I’m not big on name-calling or even labels. I like to deal with issues and answers. The reason I love Hillary is because in the debates and on the campaign trail she was confronted with issues and she always had complex, detailed, substantive answers that were so well worked out and sound and BRILLIANT that I wanted that MIND in the Oval Office. It was never about labels for me.
I don’t like to call people names, but there are coalitions, groups, etc. that exist and I will label those. PUMA used to be one of them. Obots exist, Republicans exist, and now I do believe in vampires. I don’t want them sucking the blood out of what I know we still have of a Hillary movement.
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Obots are much worse. Obama and Obots are so stupid Republicans can actually win in 2012. I stopped promoting her feminism when I realized this. Palin was socially liberal as Governor then she was sexually harrassed out of office and toes the Party line. We don’t know how liberal she would have been as Governor. She was popular among Democrats before McCain picked her which tells you everything you need tp know. She also was the mouthpiece for McCain’s campaign which made her say things like palling with terrorists. Gingrich made her say death panels. We don’t know if she was going to run as an Independent and socially liberal if the netroots didn’t sexually harrass her out of office. trolls read this blog so let me clarify I don’t believe Democrats should use Republican talking points, only the ones that are true, like when McCain and Palin said Obama was a celebrity candidate, a lightweight, how was community organizing political esp executive experience, you know, things that are true that Obots take months to figure out. Republican sources make the points more quickly. Okay enough namecalling and Palin. Wanted to clarify I like Palin as a person and when she is Governor/independent.
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Are you serious? They made her do those things,she did those things because she believes them to be true. She is a right-wing fundie.
Palin picked up the death panel bs from that betsy lady, the one who destroyed hillary’s healthcare reform bill started this death panels bs on fred thompson radioshow. They asked newt if he agreed with palin and he said yes. She and her fans were and are still taking credit that they started it and they got it out of the healthcare bills. She is now trying to take credit for starting the fake va death panels bs. The palling around with terroist was her idea,the mccain camp wanted nothing to do with it,that was when she was being all mavericky. After she said that obama’s death threat went though the roof. No one made her do any of those things,she did all by herself. We are now seeing the real palin who is a fundie right-wing person.
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You are reading Obot blogs. Those are the lines from the Obot camp. Of course, they tell you the other story just like the Right and Left made up things about Clinton. In fact, there were similarities between the way the Right demonized Clinton and how the Left demonized Clinton and Palin.
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This is why I go back to when she was Governor. She was the most popular governor in the United States. Voted by Democrats and Republicans in her state. All you need to know is she was popular with Democrats BEFORE MCCAIN PICKED HER. In fact, I thought she was a Democrat when they first named her.
Enough about Palin.
Obama was stupid enough to enable Republicans NOW WE ACTUALLY HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT REPUBLICANS.
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You have called me an obot twice, I am going to respectfully ask you to please stop. You expect me to let it go after you call me an obot and a liar,no.
These are not obot talking points. Read her facebook page. Her fans,republicans and herself take credit for making the death panels a national topic and getting it removed from the healthcare bills. Betsy McCaughey is the one who started the death panel smear when she went on the Fred Thompson Radioshow. Palin picked it up from her and posted it on her facebook page. Betsy started it and palin took it national.On August 8th Newt went on the Week on ABC and was asked about palin’s death panel smears:
STEPHANOPOULOS: One of the other claims being made about the bill — and it’s related to cost control — is an — and opponents are spreading the idea that the president’s plan will encourage euthanasia.
Most recently, Sarah Palin, on her Facebook page yesterday — I think it was Friday night actually — said that, “The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s ‘death panel’ so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their ‘level of productivity in society,’ whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.”
Now, as you know, Mr. Speaker, the president called that outlandish. He said…
GINGRICH: But why — why didn’t you put up what Dr. Zeke Emanuel said? Because Dr. Zeke Emanuel, who’s the chief adviser to the president and brother of the chief of staff, said in writing…
STEPHANOPOULOS: He’s not the chief health care adviser. He’s written three articles between 1996 and 2008 that include some of those phrases…
(CROSSTALK)
GINGRICH: … standards.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Those phrases appear nowhere in the bill. The only thing…
GINGRICH: But…
STEPHANOPOULOS: … but let me just explain what’s in the bill and then get you to respond to that. The only thing in the bill is they would allow Medicare to pay for what they say is voluntary counseling on end-of-life issues.
GINGRICH: I think people are very concerned, when you start talking about cost controls, that a bureaucracy — we don’t — you’re asking us to trust the government. Now, I’m not talking about the Obama administration. I’m talking about the government. You’re asking us to decide that we believe that the government is to be trusted.
We know people who have said routinely, well, you’re going to have to make decisions. You’re going to have to decide. Communal standards historically is a very dangerous concept.
STEPHANOPOULOS: It’s not in the bill.
GINGRICH: But the bill’s — the bill’s 1,000 pages of setting up mechanisms. It sets up 45 different agencies. It has all sorts of panels. You’re asking us to trust turning power over to the government, when there clearly are people in America who believe in — in establishing euthanasia, including selective standards.
http://crooksandliars.com/node/30317/print
I will not go to her facebook page,but this link will have a link to her facebook page:
Palin: Obama’s “Death Panel” Could Kill My Down Syndrome Baby
By Eric Kleefeld – August 7, 2009, 5:36PM
In a new posting on her Facebook account, former Gov. Sarah Palin (R-AK) made a dire statement about health care reform — that it could result in an Obama-created “death panel” killing her infant son with Down Syndrome:
The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.
And she pointed Americans’ attention to a recent speech by none other than Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN), warning of the dastardly involvement of Rahm Emanuel’s brother, who is a doctor, in the health care debate:
Rep. Michele Bachmann highlighted the Orwellian thinking of the president’s health care advisor, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, the brother of the White House chief of staff, in a floor speech to the House of Representatives. I commend her for being a voice for the most precious members of our society, our children and our seniors.
Could this be an early trial balloon for a Palin/Bachmann ticket in 2012?
(Via Dave Weigel.)
Here is her fellow republican from Alaska saying palin is lying about death panels:
critics of health care reform, the summer’s hottest political topic, aren’t helping the debate by throwing out highly charged assertions not based in fact.
Sen. Lisa Murkowski
“It does us no good to incite fear in people by saying that there’s these end-of-life provisions, these death panels,” Murkowski, a Republican, said. “Quite honestly, I’m so offended at that terminology because it absolutely isn’t (in the bill). There is no reason to gin up fear in the American public by saying things that are not included in the bill.”
Murkowski’s analysis of the health-care reform measures was delivered to a Commonwealth North crowd of about 130 at the Dena’ina Civic and Convention Center. The nonpartisan group focuses on public policy issues.
Former Gov. Sarah Palin stirred up controversy last week by suggesting on her Facebook page that people like her parents and Down syndrome son might have to appear before “Obama’s ‘death panel’ so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their ‘level of productivity in society,’ whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.”
Experts who have reviewed the various pieces of legislation, which run for hundreds of pages, say there’s no such provision.
Murkowski said it’s essential the nation’s health care system be reformed to improve access to care, boost existing cash-strapped programs such as veterans’ health care and control escalating costs.
Still, she said, Congress should slow down and not rush into bad legislation. And critics shouldn’t inflame the debate with lies, she said.
“I’ll be honest with you,” Murkowski said. “There are things that are in this bill that are bad enough that we don’t need to be making things up.”
http://www.adn.com/life/health/story/895431.html
Palin did start the palling around with terrorists
Palin: “…according to The New York Times, and they are hardly ever wrong….”
By: Teddy Partridge Saturday October 4, 2008 7:14 pm
Governor Palin is out of the loop on the strategic decisions — like not campaigning any more in Michigan. She’s also not paying attention to what Steve Schmidt tells her about The New York Times. Unveiling McCain-Palin2.0, the Character Assassination Edition, Caribou Barbie had this to say:
“Well, I was reading my copy of today’s New York Times and I was interested to read about Barack’s friends from Chicago,” she said. “Turns out one of Barack’s earliest supporters is a man who, according to The New York Times, and they are hardly ever wrong, was a domestic terrorist and part of a group that, quote, launched a campaign of bombings that would target the Pentagon and U.S. Capitol. Wow. These are the same guys who think patriotism is paying higher taxes.”
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/453
In remarks at a Colorado airport hangar today, Gov. Sarah Palin tore into Senator Barack Obama with a twist that she ripped right from the headlines of this very newspaper.
Without apparently mentioning the name of William C. Ayers, a professor in Chicago who is a former member of the radical Weathermen, Ms. Palin said, according to a pool report from her appearance:
“There is a lot of interest, I guess, in what I read and what I’ve read lately. Well, I was reading my copy of today’s New York Times and I was interested to read about Barack’s friends from Chicago.
“I get to bring this up not to pick a fight, but it was there in the New York Times, so we are gonna talk about it. Turns out one of Barack’s earliest supporters is a man who, according to the New York Times, and they are hardly ever wrong, was a domestic terrorist and part of a group that quote launched a campaign of bombings that would target the Pentagon and US Capitol. Wow. These are the same guys who think patriotism is paying higher taxes.
“This is not a man who sees America as you see it and how I see America. We see America as the greatest force for good in this world. If we can be that beacon of light and hope for others who seek freedom and democracy and can live in a country that would allow intolerance in the equal rights that again our military men and women fight for and die for for all of us. Our opponent though, is someone who sees America it seems as being so imperfect that he’s palling around with terrorists who would target their own country?”
Or as Ms. Palin put it today, a donor had suggested that she get tougher on her opponents: “And I turned to one of the staffers and said, ‘O.K. they’re serious!’ Jason the campaign staffer said, ‘O.K., let’s look at it this way, Sarah, the gloves are off, the heels are on, let’s get to work!’ ”
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/04/palin-obama-is-palling-around-with-terrorists/
She helped starting the death panel smear with Betsy and she started the obama is pallin’ around with terrorists all by herself. She is no innocent. How could you think she is a liberal/democrat. These are comments by the great Pat Johnnson about palin from The Widdershins who by the way are not obots,but liberals.
“I’ve watched so called feminist and PUMA blogs sing her praises and intimate that her actual positions do not mirror what she actually means. In other words, her position that abortion be abolished outright, including for those who are victims of rape and incest, is not true. Forget that these statements have been duly recorded and are available on YouTube, she is still a “feminist” in the eyes of those who would have you believe that what she says she does not mean. Forget that her fundamentalist background, something to which she strongly adheres, is not an important part of her “daily conversations with God” who she leans on for support just as George W. Bush declared when he went to war with Iraq. Forget that she has declared that it is “God’s will” that we went to Iraq and destroyed, maimed, killed, all those innocents who had nothing to do with 9/11 and took our own treasures along for the ride. Forget that she has stated that she is “tolerant” of gays. Not accepting mind you, but tolerant. Forget all that. Sarah Palin is a woman who was mocked by the press and deserves our undying, unexamined, unceasing support because she is a victim of the unfriendly MSM! Wow! Following that line of logic then we can consider that the “dumbing down of America” has finally reached its apex and need look no farther than the promotion of this nitwit to a higher office.”
I apologize for the long post and hijacking this thread still4hill,but I cannot allow someone to call me an obot and a liar and let them get away with it.
If you would like me to stop posting I will and you know maybe I do need a long break from posting here,because I do not like being called an obot and a liar.
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Jillforhill, NO WAY do I want you to stop commenting here. You are an important member of the Homegirl Posse and your analyses and contributions are valuable to our mission here.
As I said last night, labels are fine. RePUMAcans is a label I made up and I use it all the time. Name-calling, on the other hand, crosses some kind of line with me unless the individual self-identifies as such.
This is a public blog and everyone is free to post here, but I do not like the name-calling whihc no one here has ever donr, Donna. So I am going to request that you refrain from calling people names unless thay have identified themselves that way.
I have said I am a PUMA from way back – not RePUMAcan, BTW – a real Hillary-loyal PUMA whose party is not united. So I don’t mind being called that.
I have never seen ANYONE identify him/herself as an Obot. Certainly the Homegirls here, all of whom I know and trust, are not. So please do not use that term on them.
We are a pretty polite group – we share a devotion to Hillary along with a mission to defend her against lies.
We do not do or say here what we would not want Hillary to read. She’s our leader and we follow her example. We can be tough. We try to retain our manners.
I encourage people to watch the State Department videos of Hillary in her Senate and Congressional hearings. Even when speaking to someone diametrically opoosed to her politically, she always begins by saying something nice (and TRUE – that may have taken her some time to find) about that person.
Long ago at HV, Homegirl Jen here suggested that this strategy might be the anti-Alinsky technique. It’s a good technique.
Getting in people’s faces, calling them names, and shouting them down? What kind of strategy is that?
So please, no name-calling.
Lastly, we will defend women against sexism and misogyny – that does not imply that we auto-vote gender. That is blind foolishness.
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Help my last comment is in moderation.
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jillforhill,
Although I have blogging privileges here, I am not authorized to release your comment from moderation. You will have to wait for S4H to do it herself. But I will tell you (and others) that the reason your comment is being held is because you included more than one link in it. If you put more than one link into a comment, the spam filter catches it, thinking you are trying to spam this blog.
So, hopefully, S4H will release it for you when she can. I will also email her to let her know you are stuck in moderation hell!
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It’s out – nice work, Jillforhill!
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Thanks NYC Girl.
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It’s absolutely ridiculous that any of us should have to defend ourselves as not being Obots, as though somehow a select group of people (and apparently the group is getting more and more select) get to determine who is and who isn’t a *true* Hillary supporter and who is and isn’t some sort of nefarious, under-cover “Obot.” I’ll be damned if I am going to give into that sort of twisted, illogical thinking.
I don’t care who posted or commented on what PUMA or non-PUMA blogs- what the hell does that prove anyway? Is there some sort of secret hand-shake that proves one is “pure-blooded” enough to be a TRUE Hillary supporter? I didn’t realize being a Hillary supporter had just one or two requirements and that a small select group of people would judge whether all the rest of the people do or don’t meet those requirements. That’s a great idea for a country club admissions process but it’s not a helluva great way to run a future campaign!
Donna Darko simply dismisses everything Jill (and I) say by with this gem “you are reading Obot blogs” and therefore insinuating that Jill must be an Obot- what the heck kind of debate or reasoning is that? It’s incredibly narrow-minded, intolerant and a bit paranoid.
The irony is, there is nothing about that sort of mind-set that is personified IN ANY WAY BY HILLARY CLINTON.
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Stacy,
I will address this portion of your post, since I am the one who said that I go way back in the PUMA movement, and that I was posting in the comments on PUMA Pac from the very beginning:
You may not care who posted or commented as a PUMA from the very beginning, but many people — including myself — find that information relevant to the events of last year’s election, and in particular to what our level of support was for Hillary. A lot of blood was spilled by diehard Hillary loyalists who went the distance — went to the PUMA leadership conference in DC, went to the DNC-RBC meeting in DC where the FL and MI votes were cut in half and Hillary’s delegates were parceled out to Obama, went to Denver to protest at the convention, etc. There were those of us who could not be physically present at those events but who lent our support in other ways. I started an online PUMA Yahoo Group so that local NY-NJ area PUMAs could network with each other. There were many other activities that PUMAs took on themselves to try to get the nomination for Hillary. Does that take anything away from people who did not engage in PUMA activities, but who were still supporting Hillary? No, it does not take anything away, but many feel that it adds something to the conversation about our support for Hillary.
“Secret hand-shake”? “Pure-blooded … TRUE Hillary supporter”? Sounds like sarcastic comments by an “outsider” with a chip on her shoulder, no? So, you’re not a PUMA. Okay. That’s fine. But I am. And many other Hillary supporters are, or maybe were. And our movement’s history is meaningful to us, in spite of the low regard you may have for it.
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NYC Girl, I tried to make clear I was not referring to ALL PUMAs across the board in each of my responses and in the last one you highlighted I was responding specifically to Donna and her comments. Looking back now however and re-reading it I can see how it came across as overly-sarcastic and possibly aimed at the entire PUMA movement and for that, I apologize.
When I referred to not caring who posted what where, I was trying to make the point, not that I take issue with ALL PUMAS, but rather that I’m not sure why some people seem to think there are some Hillary supporters who are MORE loyal, MORE hard-working, MORE trust-worthy, simply by being a PUMA and everything that goes along with that. I understand how you may be frustrated with criticism of some PUMAs but can you understand how frustrating it is to constantly feel like I have to prove myself in a new forum because I don’t identify as being a PUMA? And would you agree at *all* that there is a bit of that attitude out there?
And again, I was responding to Donna’s post where she clearly alluded to all of the above- those of us who she didn’t “recognize” from the PUMA blogs were immediately written off as Obots and immediately afterwards, people started vouching for each other’s PUMA status- you defended Still4Hill’s PUMA/Homegirl credentials, which is certainly your right to do, but do you at all find it strange that apparently we even HAVE to do that? Aren’t you kind of implying that you yourself *may* feel that other PUMAs ARE more loyal and committed to the Hillary cause despite the fact that we all worked for the cause in the way that best suited us, our lives, and our particular priorities? Now, granted, maybe you don’t feel that way- I obviously can’t read your mind, but that’s kind of how I interpreted the defensiveness and immediate need for some to “prove” their PUMA bonafides as though anyone else somehow doesn’t fit the definition of ‘homegirl’.
And looking to the future, I think it’s a problem if pro-Hillary PUMAs and people like me who don’t identify as PUMAs, can’t even work together for the common goal of getting Hillary elected to POTUS.
So, I apologize for over-generalizing when I was really only speaking to a subset of people represented by Donna’s views as expressed here and I should not have been so snarky.
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Stacy,
First of all: Apology accepted, without hesitation.
I want to clarify this, though: Let me just remind you of where you are: the Department of Homegirl Security blog was started by a PUMA, is listed on Daily PUMA, and is considered to be a PUMA blog, popular with many PUMAs. THAT is the reason there are so many PUMAs on here talking about our movement, and why it is of interest and importance to us how long we have been in the movement and what our credentials are. There is no intent to exclude anyone. But if you are not a PUMA, then you are by definition “outside” of our movement. Not better or worse — just not one of us, because you chose not to be. You do not have to prove yourself in any way at all — unless you come on to a PUMA blog and give us the impression that you do not care about the PUMA movement and/or that you feel PUMAs are excluding other Hillary supporters. Yes, if you give us that impression, then you can count on some resistance. The impression we received may be erroneous, but that is where the resistance came from.
It does matter to PUMAs who goes back how far and with whom. So, if you are on a PUMA blog, then I am letting you know, that is what you will find. Like I said, it may be helpful just reminding you of where you are right now.
So, my advice to you is — don’t make yourself uncomfortable by even taking any of that into account if it bothers you. If you are not able to let that go past you, then I don’t know what to tell you. If you do not like the fact that we are “vouching for each other’s PUMA status”, just understand that this is what goes on at PUMA blogs sometimes!
No one is asking you to prove anything if you’re not a PUMA. But if someone says they’re a PUMA and they are calling me or another PUMA “an Obot” on a PUMA blog, then we have a situation that needs to be straightened out. And it then has nothing to do with YOU, because you said you’re not a PUMA! Am I making sense at all? If not, or if you have any questions or comments that you don’t want to write here, please email me. We will work this out in some fashion off the blog, if you want to.
To address your concerns — Going forward: We will get everyone on the same page — PUMAs, non-PUMAs — all of whom supported Hillary. Eventually, we will bring in the Obama supporters, too, if they are willing to vote for Hillary this time around. We will bring in the centrists, the independents, the old-school lefties like me — we will have a true coalition. But nothing is easy. And we are making history as we hash out these questions publicly.
People are reading our posts and watching a movement morph and take shape right before their eyes. This is a very exciting time to be politically active. What was/is the PUMA movement will become something new and different, and maybe have a new name. But we will out-organize the opposition next time and we will make it work, for sure.
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There is no PUMA membership required here, and there never was. It is a defense-against=attacks site. If you read “Why we are here” – it started to defend Hillary who was being attacked for campaigning for the ticket she promised to support. At the time I wrote that and started this, some of my favorite PUMAs had turned on Hillary. Some even wrote to her and asked for their money back. They were spitting mad! Remember “Hillary Sent Me’? Many loyal Hillary supporters did that – FOR HER! And I do not fault them – though I did not join them.
That said, there is the original goal of defending Hillary against attacks – which occurs in the present except when memes are recycled – and the other goal which was not the original one – but it just does not go away: To get Hillary into the Oval Office – which occurs in the future.
The past has lessons, but we do not require creds here.
It is inappropriate to “vet” Homegirls here according to recognition from “PUMA sites.” I think some of those sites were Republican sites. Now there were legit PUMA sites, but whether or not someone happened over there, commented, or knew so-and-so from there is not the point of this blog nor a credential for being here.
This has a simple point -and if you look back you will see that there are many posts without Hillary in them – to fight sexism, prevent misogyny, and defend the principles and reputation of our Homegirl Hillary.
There is no membership card. You either live in this naib or you don’t. If Hillary’s platform is your front porch, you live in the naib and you are a Homegirl.
If you are devoted to Sarah Palin, you may come and visit and even post (though I don’t know why you would want to – we have verbal switchblades). But you are not a Homegirl here, Since she seems to live at Facebook, then you are her Homegirl at Facebook.
And be warned:
Since most of us agree that the PUMA movement has shattered the way we saw both major parties shatter last year, PUMA creds and past postings are not as important here as loyalty to Hillary, refutation of toxic memes & lies, and battle against the effort to turn Hillary supporters into Palin supporters based entirely on biology. We’re a girl gang, and we are as fierce as our leader.
When you’re a Jet, you STAY a Jet!
I leave this unbelievably long thread with Hillary’s words from the interview way back at the beginning of this post:
“So, it is unfinished business, and young women know it is unfinished business.”
“…all of that ripple that is building and building — and is unstoppable.”
Palinistas (Sharks): Don’t even THINK about it!
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Apparently, I am the one who is in error. I thought this was a PUMA site. I guess I was thrown off by the fact that: it was started by a PUMA, it is listed on Daily PUMA, it is CONSIDERED to be a PUMA site, and is popular with PUMAs. In my world, if it walks, talks, and acts like a duck, then it is a DUCK.
However, I stand by the intent of my post above: There is no sense in complaining that you are being “excluded” from a movement that you chose not to join.
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Well, I’ve just now seen this. I totally agree with the original post. I was a die hard PUMA for reasons of voter fraud, caucus fraud. I thought liberals opposed such actions as it smacks of repression and is a hell of a slippery slope.
But when PUMA began to after the G.E. STILL despite a so called “protest vote” espouse values that are so out of whack with mine…well…it was difficult. I did not post anymore.
Okay, so it started out as a way to draw attention to election fraud and misogyny. BUT there is no agenda in following the right wing for women. Is “The New Agenda” on to something?? Yes! I’ve long thought that it is a distraction to only focus on the abortion issue when there is so much other suffering ignored we can all agree on wanting to do something about. However, I do not agree that Palin or any republicans are on the same page as I am with the regard to feminism. HUMANISM.
Some of their fundie agenda is so anti woman it’s scary. I cannot being a life long liberal go there with them. I think they do Hillary no service in staying in that position. None whatsoever.
I have seen Hillary’s work since about 1983 with regard to her dedication to women’s issues, children’s issues. Her pro bono work for abused women and children was the beginning of her journey. I have personally seen her do work in the poorest of neighborhoods for women and children and I know from seeing what I did where her heart is and how steadfast she holds to her liberal goals whenever, and wherever it is at all possible. Many do not know the right wing onslaught she was up against in Little Rock. I DO.
The “man” Obama got credit for his community organizing. The “woman” Hillary did far more than he has yet dreamed of but, there is never a peep about it. Her programs there worked and she fought hard for them. They were liberal programs in a red state and even the republicans there had to admit those programs worked. Took advantage of them for their own families and that’s why she won that state so over the top in the primary! Even after all those years. The PROOF she could get things done was there.
I don’t care what PUMA does..I will support them when I think they are right but, I do not think they serve Hillary Clinton very well when they support the far right.
I am all for getting Hillary into the White House in my life time. We do not have any other woman who has walked the walk she has for women in that party. No one comes even close. That is my agenda and that’s all there is to it. My biggest fear is the right wing WILL put Palin in that position and that to me would be a tremendous let down and failure for women and feminists. NOT because I buy the media hype about her totally but, because she hasn’t got the grasp of what this historical moment means. The shoulders that woman will stand on need to be honored. It means something and Palin cannot teeter up there in her high heels with her Anita Bryant hair and agenda to go with it and represent all the IDEALS that moment holds.
I will defend her against misogyny but, she is NO Hillary Rodham Clinton by a LONG shot.
From Hillary’s speech in Beijing “Women’s Rights’ ARE Human Rights” to her actions today she is the same person for the same values. It’s time, it’s PAST TIME. And there is no one else to walk up to that place in history as deservedly as she in my life time.
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So I hope we can all get along agreeing that it is not about being part of PUMA or not since that movement is rather unfocused now anyway. It IS about defending Hillary (primarily) and those who support her and her ideals and about promoting her true image and not the memes manufactured by her opposition.
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This argument reminds me of something I read in one of Jonathan Kozol’s books.
Kozol was describing a wealthy white neighborhood on the west side of NYC where many of the residents were liberals who had been involved in the civil rights movement in the 1960s. They liked to talk about how they had marched with Martin Luther King and how they’d stood on the bridge in Selma. Yet, despite their history, these same people sent their children to exclusive private schools instead of the local public schools, where many of the students were poor children of color. In this particular case, the poor black kids were being bussed into the wealthy white neighborhood; no one was forcing the rich white folks to bus their kids into the South Bronx or anything like that. Still, these white liberals fled from the public school system. The public school teacher who described this situation to Kozol remarked that he didn’t care if these liberals stood on the bridge in Selma back in the 1960s– he cared about what bridge they were standing on now.
Which brings me to my point (and I do have one). If you, like NYC Girl, stood on Hillary’s bridge last year and haven’t given up or sold out, then I applaud you and I thank you. But there are too many PUMAs who aren’t standing on that bridge anymore. As Still4Hill pointed out, the movement has lost its focus. I, for one, don’t feel like sitting around waiting for them to resolve their identity crisis. Meanwhile, there are non-PUMAs such as Stacy, who is working hard to promote our Secretary of State. I don’t know which bridge Stacy was standing on last year, but as far as I am concerned she is standing on the right bridge now. And that is what matters most to me.
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Perfect! This is why I love you, Jen.
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I get it now. This is my first time posting here so
it was confusing. I also want Hillary to be President in 2012 or 2016 and to continue to defend her from attacks.
The right wing stuff is bewildering though it’s hard to identify anyone or any site as Republican. I could only think of “Karen” and even she made it clear she was a non affiliated college student. She veers from Independent, liberal to right wing.
Obams is the Republican sleeper cell anyway and the one everyone should pay attention to.
PUMA is a sentiment about thr stolen/rigged nomination and primary misogyny/homophobia. I don’t see why it can’t last forever in some form as a continuous struggle for democracy and feminism/GLBT rights. We got our Council for Women and Girls, the Caucus and Primary Reform Commission and in today’s news, Texas is reforming their two step caucus primary system. The first two are cosmetic but that’s the kind of person Obama is. Iran put three women in its Parliament for the first time but they are from the ruling party similar to how Obama promotes women who were his supporters and bundlers. Iranians continue to protest the stolen election and misogyny. The latest is that Afghanistan went through the same thing, intimidation and fraud in their recent election in which women’s votes were not counted and women were intimidated at the polls. We all continue to struggle for democracy, feminism and GLBT rights throughout the world.
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Good points, Donna. That’s what this blog is about, primarily. Keeping Hillary’s issues and image secure and publicizing lies and violations so that people learn the truth.
Stacy’s blog is about promoting Hillary’s accomplishments at State. There are, sometimes, issues that are addressed at both, Her work is assiduous and it’s clear (very clear to me) that she loves Hillary and wants to help get her elected. That, of course, is our ultimate goal.
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